ShantiMayi:
“You give to your Master until you are completely
empty.”
ShantiMayi
travels the world with an inexhaustible energy to meet people who are longing to
realize their True Nature. She is American by birth, and has lived for over a
decade, during the winter months, in the traditional Indian ashram of her
Master, Sri Hans Raj, Maharajji. ShantiMayi is a spiritual world teacher, open
to everyone, living in the heart, where
no division can be made. Dick Berts spoke with ShantiMayi during her recent
visit to Holland.
When
is someone ready to meet his or her spiritual Master? What is the turning point?
“A
Master has students who are mature and those who are not mature. Both have the
same Master in the same life. Why? Only because it is time for the Master to
appear. If the Master appears, someone is ready to meet his or her Master. It is
important to understand that the disciple is not inferior to the Master. He or
she is a Master to come. It is a gift that is given, but it is also the
willingness to receive it. The turning point differs for everyone, but it must
also imply some similarity; one’s life changes. He or she takes a deeper look
in his or her life than ever before. One may have experienced a shock, a loss.
One can wake up one morning and want to know what is God. He or she has come
closer to the heart than to all conditionings of life. It has been told to me
that I am a woman, American, of a certain family. But if I come to my heart, I
realize that those conditionings of society might still be there, but they do
not indicate who I am. I am not an American, although I am one. I am more then
the definition of America. The turning point is there when you cannot define
anything so lightly. When you look through that, you step with one foot on the
path. Then you come into contact with that which you and all beings are in
essence.”
How
can someone who still has a closed heart recognize the difference between a real
enlightened Master and a cheater who attempts to get them into a dangerous sect?
“These
dangerous sects are so rare. Most of the time the intention of people is good,
also when they are not yet enlightened Masters. And someone with good intention
can do something good. We live in a world that is full of sects: armies,
countries, and so on. Nowadays we are surrounded with such a tremendous amount
of violence and war everywhere. It is almost our most important food and our
most important entertainment. And furthermore, when one unbalanced group of
people takes their lives, all religious outsiders that are not firmly rooted in
a church are suddenly suspected. But I say to you, there are so many wonderful
beings with wonderful intentions. We react way too strongly to single incidents.
But there is a way to find out with a closed heart if someone is a real Master.
Because in that case your heart will be opened! Your heart can be opened by a
good spiritual friend. In Buddhism, a true Master is called a spiritual friend.
This appeals to me a lot. A way to find out is to see if a Master, again and
again, keeps distance from his or her students. Not physical, but with words,
like: “I am this and you are that.” “When you have come to my level.” It
is possible that you might hear something like that on occasion, it can be
necessary sometimes. But when you get to hear repeatedly that someone is higher
than you, it might be time to step in your car and go home.”
You
are a very warm-hearted Guru. Always very kind and tender to your students.
Other Gurus are much more tough on their students. How does that come about?
“
I am very strict. Sometimes I am tender, but not all of the time. My Guru,
Maharajji is much more tender than I am. When I went through the Sinai Desert,
someone said to me, “I always find your words so fantastic.” I replied,
there might come a time that you do not find my words so fantastic. It is nice
when you find my words wonderful, because it means that we have understood each
other. But there might come a time that my
answer is so tough on you, that you get the feeling
you have landed in a whirlpool, because it brings you so quickly inside.
The fellow was a physician. So I said, when a patient refuses to take his
medicines, you have to push them down the throat once in a while, if you want to
be a good physician. You have to do what is necessary. Just before I was about
to leave India, I invited one of my students to come to visit friends. She said
yes. Then she turned around and said, “I don’t think you really want me to
come.” I opposed this then strongly. I don’t think you can think what I
think. Let us be honest and straight with each other. Sometimes you have to
break through projections firmly. But I want to be strong, powerful and tender
in my heart. The heart that is really tender is the heart that is the most
powerful. What is between my students and I, does not get split easily when
there is mutual respect, but I don’t want to be placed on a pedestal. Because
that is something military and not something spiritual. We love each other. One
of my favorite photos is the one where the Master sits hand in hand with his or
her student. That touches me deeply, because I am very close with my students.
But sometimes the body needs to step back a bit.”
Do
we have a free will of acting or are we completely owned and ruled by
consciousness?
“We
are
consciousness. That which directs and that which is directed is the same in
essence. It is not necessary to make a division there. When you say ‘I am
God’, it is true, as long as you see that ‘I am God’ in everything that
you can experience and do not leave anything out. But if you use ‘I am God’
in a personal way, you have not understood a bit.”
What
would it mean for our consciousness when we destroy the planet Earth?
“Then
we would not be here anymore, would we? I am worried about that too. But when it
happens there is not much that we can do to prevent it. We have to do what we
can to prevent this planet from being destroyed. By purifying our lives and by
opening our hearts and mind as wide as possible, as long as we still have a
life, however long or short that may be. That is better than
worrying about the question
whether something is going to happen, because we are anyhow very vulnerable. At
any moment a comet can appear that splits our planet in two. You can never know
what is about to happen. That is the beauty of life. Planets are born and they
die. If we destroy our planet, consciousness would still be there. If we could
call it ‘our’ consciousness is yet another question. It is of little use to
worry about it. It matters that you have as little as possible to do with that
kind of energy. You cannot put it aside; we have to be engaged in maintaining
the Earth. But the final result remains unpredictable. Maybe humanity does not
destroy the Earth, but destroys itself. As a matter of fact, there are different
angles from where you could answer this question. One is from consciousness;
then we are the planet and we destroy ourselves. Another angle is to look from
the individual person and then it is very saddening. Another angle is to look
from the illusion and then there is no world. But of course it would be
wonderful if humanity would not destroy itself. It is such a useless act. It
shows the stupidity of humanity. When you compare this to their brilliant
intelligence, then you see that most of their energy is invested in greed and
separation. People do not even look at each other in the street. We try to
separate something that is undividable. At that causes our pain.”
You
once said that fundamental insight is to see that you don’t have to suffer.
Why does humanity suffer so tremendously?
“Because
we have forgotten who we really are. When you cling to greediness, you have
forgotten who you are. When you are in a condition of hate, you also have
forgotten who you are. When you think you are higher or lower then someone, you
also have forgotten who you are. We have deeply forgotten that we all are of one
essence. Every time this is forgotten, unnecessary suffering is created.
Sometimes we cannot avoid suffering, like in the case of physical or mental
instability. But unnecessary suffering is always caused by separation,
greediness and desire. We are full of that nowadays. Our world has become so
superficial. Parents do not tell their children that all hearts beat alike.
Children at the age of five are already fixated on Nike shoes. They are allowed
to have those. The material world is not wrong. But if one forgets one’s
source, it causes suffering. The tremendous suffering we see nowadays
everywhere, can be a sign of hopefulness. Maybe it is a turning point. But
people also get addicted to suffering. They forget how it is to feel peaceful.
Maybe they cling to that out of insecurity. But security does not exist in life.
Security is realizing that security does not exist. There you are secure and
there you are free, when you know that you are vulnerable.”
What
other fundamental matters should humanity understand, according to you?
“There
is a saying, divide and conquer. But I say that you have to unite. That is much
more effective. It would be wonderful if humanity understood that we are One big
family. And that when you hurt someone else, you do not only hurt yourself, but
the whole of humanity. That is not a theory, it is literally true. It is the
main cause why humanity suffers tremendously nowadays. The divisions that we
have imposed are the cause of great suffering. We exist of One and the same
essence. It is very difficult for humanity to come to see that. We are all
unique. But that uniqueness is very common because it concerns us all. The
commonness and the uniqueness are different sides of the same coin. They both
have to be in
balance. I don’t want to be you and you don’t want to be me. But you and I
are undivided essence. Because you are unique I love to get to know you. When
you would be the same as I, I would always look in a mirror. But at the same
time our hearts can meet in the undivided essence. People are led so easily. But
you have to stand firm on your own feet. To investigate and experience for
yourself is very important. I follow my Master like a baby fish follows its
mother. But we are not the same.
Everything is different about us. He is an Indian man, I am an American woman.
He is silent, I am talkative. He is softer then I am. I am better educated then
he is. There are so many differences. But without a shadow of a doubt he is the
most wonderful being I have ever met. He
can guide me to any place, but it is me
that walks. And he knows that. The Master does not carry anyone; you have to be
strong yourself. You have to find the essence in yourself. The Master can put
you in that direction time after time. But you have to do it yourself. When
someone really wants to have a Master, he will lose everything. His head, his
pride, his jealousy, his ignorance, his separation, all he ever thought that had
been dear to him or her. What does
he or she get in return? Nothing. No-thing. It is not about giving and
receiving. It is giving, giving and giving. You give so much to your Master
until you are completely empty. Until there is nothing inside of you that can
make any separation, until there is nothing left in you that is able to suffer,
that is able to compare. Until you have left behind all these superficial
conditionings. And that takes a long time.”
Why
are people who have a Master often
more joyful?
“Because
they do not carry these unnecessary things anymore. But you never want to frame
it into giving and taking, because we are so used to that. When I received
something in return from my Master, I wanted to get rid of that immediately. I
do not want anything in return, because there is nothing I want to have.
Recently my Master asked if I wanted something from him. Maybe a house? But I
did not want anything. He said that he trusts me completely. It is the only
thing in the world that I need. I said: “You have to trust completely my
ability to do what you ask.” Do I have faith in my own sangha? Absolutely. Of
course they will all come to self-realization. Sooner or later
in another lifetime. All beings will come to self realization
eventually.”
Do
you have a practical method for people to come to self-realization?
“Treat
others as you would like to be treated yourself.” That is not easy at all. But
then the doors are opened, and consciousness, and the mind, and the heart. Then
every step in life is deeper into yourself and deeper into the true nature of
all things. It looks very simple, but it is going very deep. When there is
integrity, dignity and love between us, then we will allow each other to
penetrate deeper into each other. Without any condition. There you find oneness,
and in oneness the totality, and in
totality emptiness, and in emptiness availability.”
What
question of your students has touched you the most?
I cannot recall a question, but I do remember an answer. ‘Love is the
easiest way.’ ‘Love is easy,’ one student said. I told her at the time
that I felt the urgent need arising to run towards her and to lay my head at her
feet. I was so touched. Because nobody says that love is easy, everybody says
always that love is difficult. But she is right; love is the easiest thing that
exists, the simplest and the most effective way. Another time I asked a man how
he was doing. ‘I am always the same,’ he replied. I thought, this man has
seen something.”
Once
you apologized because you cannot tolerate liars.
“Yes.
I am sorry that I am like that. I am able to tolerate liars, but it aches my
heart that people cheat each other to attain power. That is my weakness. I have
to look through it. And I am able to do that, but I am always conscious that
people are not honest. Of course you do not have to go through life like a blind
mule, but you have to look always deeper than the lie. Before you see anything,
you have to see God. You still see the lie, but the one who lies, also. Although
the liar does not know who he is, you still know that.”
You
say: “The heart-whatever that may mean to you-understand perfectly well the
oneness in all things.” What does the heart mean to you?
“The heart means an understanding, a way of being, a way of seeing, a way of hearing, a way of experiencing that refuses any separation whatsoever. That is a huge challenge, a very wonderful challenge. One heart that is open can already make a big difference. Had Hans Brinker not put his little finger in the dike, the whole of Holland would have been flooded. That is why we live the life of a bodhisattva and keep a constant prayer going, so that consciousness may be uplifted, and in that way the dike will not break. All the misery of the world cannot break us, we only feel more inspired by it to go even deeper in our prayer. This is the way the Dalai Lama, the Hopis and many others feel. It will be a glorious day, and it surely will come, that all beings understand the oneness of all things.”
Will
all beings, without exception ever come to understand this?
With an overwhelming power in her voice: “Sure.”
Dick Berts.
May 2001
Handel N.Br. The Netherlands.
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